Season 1, Ep. 7: Jim Henson's Muppets
In this episode, Layla and I are chatting about Jim Henson, his Muppets and his lasting legacy of innovation and creativity.
See the accompanying photos for this episode on Instagram: @makinghistorypodcast
Send us listener mail! makinghistorypodcast@yahoo.com
SHOW NOTES:
I prepared for this episode by reading these two books:
I also watched Adam Savage's Tested on YouTube, he has several great videos about the Muppets!
Previous Episodes:
Full Transcript:
Jim Henson Podcast
Nikki: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to the Making History Podcast, where we chat every month about the fascinating and varied history of sewing, quilting, and crafting of all types. If you're new here, I'm Nikki. You may know me from YouTube, my YouTube channel called Pin Cut, so where I post all kinds of sewing and quilting related content and tutorials, and I have a pattern shop as well.
You can find all of that and more at pin cut, so studio.com. My daughter and co-host Layla is here. Of course. Hello. And today we're gonna chat about Jim Henson and puppets. So fun, right? Yeah. I don't, I don't know anything about really. So you and I, yes. You do know a little bit. You have one very specific personal, very specific,
Layla: personal, traumatic story from Yeah.
Nikki: And I actually have some personal history with puppets, and so this'll be a fun conversation. Yeah. Before we start though, I want to thank those of you who have supported the podcast so far by either leaving us a five star review and a nice comment, or if you've supported us over at Buy Me a Coffee. You can support this podcast at buy me a coffee.com/pin cut. So, [00:01:00] and it literally buys Layla a coffee quite literally. We really appreciate those donations. We are, this is a new endeavor, so it is not yet a money making endeavor, but we hope that it will be one day and this is just one of those ways we can crowdfund the process to get us there.
Layla: Heck yeah.
Nikki: So we thank you for that. Yeah, thank y'all. Okay, a few more notes. We have email now so you can send us a note at. Uh, making History podcast@yahoo.com and we've gotten a few already. I'm gonna read them at the end or have Layla read them and because so many people were chiming in with comments on YouTube or.
Wherever they're watching or listen, I mean listening, not watching. This is audio only. Um, with personal stories about like, especially for the gunny sax episode, so many people wrote in and said, I got married in a gunny sax, or I went to prom in a gunny sax, and I am desperate to see those photos. Yes, please send us photos.
So send us those wedding dress photos in. The email Making history podcast@yahoo.com. And then tell me if you will allow us to [00:02:00] post it on Instagram. Yeah. 'cause I would love to have like a roundup Yes. Post. That'd be so fun. Somebody did write in and tell us that Hillary Clinton wore a gunny sax to mm-hmm.
Her wedding. And we tracked down that photo and put it on the Making History podcast page on Instagram. So if you are interested in, that's the other business note. If you want to see accompanying photos to this or any episode, Layla puts all of that stuff up on Making History Podcast on Instagram, so you can interact with us there too.
Yeah. So onto Jim Henson. Layla, tell us your personal anecdote on this topic. Okay. Okay. I think we have to explain the movie Will. Yeah.
Layla: Yeah. I have to explain the movie Will. So a few months ago we, we are a family of five. With varying taste in movies. So getting us all together to watch a movie and decide on one is a little, it's tricky.
So we made a movie wheel and everybody puts two movies on there. It's an app. You can get an
Nikki: app that spins the wheel for you. It's
Layla: like the jeopardy wheel, but there's, and you fill in the
Nikki: blanks by yourself.
Layla: Yes. So we, if we, everyone was home, we'd spin the movie wheel. And I, being a David Bowie [00:03:00] fan, I know the song Magic Dance and I know that it's from Labyrinth.
And so I put Labyrinth on the wheel. She had never seen it. I had never seen it. I was like, this looks like a cool kind of artsy or kind of Spunkier movie, you know? So I'll put it on there. And David Bowie, I love him. And so mine got picked to watch and it was. It is an awful movie. Truly horrible. Like it is so embarrassingly bad.
Oh no, this is not a good segue into the genius of Jim Henson. It's like the puppets are amazing, but the actual movie is like. It's a really hard watch. Yeah. It's hard to get through. Bless. Bless my whole family. They made it through the hour and a half and then proceeded to bully me after for picking such a bad movie.
Nikki: Okay. I have to tell on our oldest daughter a little bit, Natalie, because when we spin the wheel, she gets one of these podcasting microphones out. Mm-hmm. And we airplay. The wheel app from my phone to the tv and she pretends to be an announcer and we all yell, spin that,
Layla: that wheel. And it is so funny. It is [00:04:00] really fun.
Yeah. She was the, she was the front of the bullying, her and my dad. Yeah.
Nikki: I had seen that movie before when I think, when I was dating dad. You didn't tell me. And I remember it. I remember not liking it very much, but I, I, I don't know. When you're young, you just assume you think things are dumb that aren't necessarily dumb.
I actually do wanna re-watch it. Now that I know so much about the The Muppets.
Layla: The Muppets, yeah. 'cause the puppets are impressive. The entire rest of the movie, David Bowie, he's wearing these stupid high waters the entire time.
Nikki: Okay. The fashion. And he's like dancing
Layla: around them. And his hair looks like he got electrocuted.
It was
Nikki: the eighties.
Layla: It was so bad. Like, so bad.
Nikki: But, but Jennifer, what's her name? What's her name?
Layla: I thought that was Brooke Shields. No, Jennifer, uh, Sarah? No. Her name's Sarah in the movie. Her dress was really pretty. I thought her fashion was fine.
Nikki: Yeah. What was her name?
Layla: I don't remember.
Nikki: Someone will comment
Layla: it.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Nikki: Personal anecdote on Labyrinth Aside. Yeah, it's okay. We are into a really fun chat actually about Jim Henson. So the first half we're gonna talk about Jim Henson, his life and his career, and [00:05:00] then after that we're gonna talk about how the Muppets are made and the magic that is the Muppets.
It's incredible. So Jim Henson is kind of like you, Layla. Oh, okay. I actually, I thought about having my mom on this episode, but then I was learning about him and was thinking this is, this is like Layla. So, and you'll see why I think, okay. But anyway, he was born in 1936. Whoa. Oh, let me say, the books I use to study for this episode are called Jim Henson, the Biography by Brian J.
Jones. And I have a big random house book with tons of pictures called Jim Hesson, the Works. I will link to both of those in the notes. But Jim Henson was born in 1936. He spent half his childhood in Mississippi, and then his dad took a job in Washington, DC so he moved to Maryland. He was the younger of two brothers.
Okay, so youngest child, you're not the youngest child, but No. Okay. You're not the oldest either. and he, the, the move to Maryland was good because he moved closer to his grandma, who he called dear. Uh, and she was dear, extremely [00:06:00] influential in his artistic life because grandma dear, yeah, she was a sewist, she was an artist.
Mm-hmm. She was into all the fiber crafts and there was no limit to what she would allow the boys to try creatively.
Layla: Aw, that's fun. And even before
Nikki: they moved to her, closer to her, she visited them constantly and she was like a huge source of artistic inspiration in his life.
Layla: Isn't there a Grandma Muppet?
Nikki: Oh, I'm sure. I wonder if she was fashioned after him. I feel like I'm
Layla: probably, or maybe it's the two old men I'm thinking about, probably,
Nikki: I don't know. That's cute though. Oh yeah. The two old men. Okay. So at the same time that he was moving, the family was moving around 1946 TV programming came back after World War ii.
Mm. I guess it took a hiatus probably. I did not know that. I would assume. Yeah. Um, yeah, I would assume too. And so Jim Henson got so into television. Okay, sir. He back then, televisions cost a really long time. I mean a lot of money, a long time. They cost a ton of money, but he finally nagged his parents enough to buy one, I think it was like a thousand dollars, which for the time whoa, is [00:07:00] pretty expensive.
Layla: Okay. But a thousand dollars for a TV now I feel is pretty expensive.
Nikki: Yeah. But I feel like that's pretty like average really. Also, I think our, we just got a new TV and it was $1,200.
Layla: No way. The TV dad and I
Nikki: bought when we were. Had been married when you guys were tiny, was $400. Yeah, that that seems more, right?
So yeah, I guess they have like, but now they're flat and different. Yeah, they're fancy and they're Okay. So let me read you these little stats about tv. Okay. In the 1940s. So in 1946, when TV broadcasting resumed. After World War ii, shortly before their relocation, there were approximately 7,000 television sets in the entire United States.
Whoa. Only 7,000. By the end of 19 47, 1 year later, the American television audience was estimated at a million.
Layla: Oh my goodness. Just
Nikki: three years later, it was reported that the citizens of Baltimore, just 20 miles from the Henson home, had become the first in the nation to spend more time watching television than listening to the radio.
Layla: That's 'cause Tracy Turnblad was up on the screen. She was dancing away.
Nikki: Okay, so this was like a very rapid [00:08:00] switch from radio to tv. Yeah, huge. When I was young, everyone was very worried that the TV was rotting our brains. When you were young, it was video games.
Yeah. I wonder what it will be next. AI before tv. I bet it was radio and before radio. It was definitely books. Novels, yeah. Yeah. Um, ai, yeah, you're right, for sure. So he got very obsessed with tv, not just watching it, but also understanding the production side of it. He realized as a. Storyteller that he already was when he was young.
That storytelling on TV encompassed art and filmography and so, and storytelling, and all kinds of different mediums. All mediums that he already loved.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: And he was quoted later as saying, I loved art, I loved television, and I loved storytelling. And I somehow fell into a career that encompassed all three.
Yeah. And that's why I was thinking of you, because Twin, this is you. Yeah. Yeah. You also love all of these things. so he did finally convince his parents to get one. And at the time, and this is what maybe our listeners can email us about, is what kind of programming there was available.
Layla: Mm.
Nikki: [00:09:00] It seems like there was a lot of like variety shows.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: And a lot of shows with puppets, surprisingly.
Layla: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I'm thinking of like, um. Yeah. What's the show that Britney Spears started on it and Ryan Gosling was on it. The Mickey Mouse Club? Yeah, the Mickey Mouse Club. I'm thinking stuff kind of like that. Yes. It was probably
Nikki: a
precursor to that
kind of
Layla: thing.
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki: Okay, so when he was 16 and old enough for a job, he immediately started going around to different television studios locally and asked to work for them. Hmm. Nothing really came of that for a couple years until finally, right after he graduated high school, he heard that a local TV station wanted puppeteers.
Layla: Fun. They didn't
Nikki: wanna pay very much, so they were specifically looking for teenagers. Oh. So kind of funny. That's still happening today. That's funny. So, but he was, he jumped right on it. Yeah. So he got his friend Russell, they built a couple of puppets. Whoa. Pierre, the French rat and a couple of cowboys named, he's still
Layla: around, isn't.
Um,
Nikki: the little rat.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: Yeah. Wee wee. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Yeah, couple cowboys named Longhorn and Shorthorn, [00:10:00] and they took these to audition. That's they got hired. That's cool. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So one little job like that, even though the commercials like that he was puppeteering for didn't last very long.
Or the show he did get, like, there was a little spot about him in a mag local magazine and so that's cool. It kind of snowballed from there. And he got more and more jobs. And he actually met his future wife. That's so when he started college, he actually did go to college at the University of Maryland for art.
Hmm. He thought he'd become a commercial artist. Do you know what a commercial artist is? I'm not really sure.
Layla: Commercial. Well, commercial art. Taken literally would be like Kroger ads, like animating those Kroger ads. Oh. Or it, I would think it's like advertising. Illustrating advertising. Yeah. Like for the newspaper maybe back then.
Oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Something like that's
Nikki: like, okay, that makes sense.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: So he was actually really talented at this. There's some pictures of his work in this book. Ooh. Yeah. Like look at this poster. I. He was very illustrative in his work, which Layla also was. Yeah,
Layla: very cool.
Nikki: And then he had a screen printing business for [00:11:00] posters around campus.
That's cool. So he was actually really good at this. Hmm. But he was kind of too good at it, and it just still was not what he wanted to do. Oh, he wanted to be in television. Yeah. So he was growing this business by accident while he was in college and making plenty of money at it and decided he just. Was taking too much of his time.
Yeah. He didn't like it. That's fine. Yeah. So he at the same time met a girl named Jane, who became his first performing partner, and later they got married. Aw. And she worked as a puppeteer with him for years and years and years. Yeah. Cool. He was his first performance partner,
Layla: Jim and Jane Henson. Yeah. Wow.
That's cute.
Nikki: But while he was still in college, actually, he did finish his degree in art, even though he knew it wasn't exactly what he wanted to do. He also simultaneously started making strides and TV puppetry.
Mm.
Nikki: And he was already starting to make the kind of puppets that he would call Muppets and that would become those beloved characters.
We all know. Cute. During this, this era of experimental tv, he started to realize, because a [00:12:00] lot of the puppet shows would have like the traditional, you know when you go to a puppet show as a kid in person mm-hmm. They have a puppet stage. Yeah. And it's there and you're the audience and they just. Play puppets.
Yeah. He started to be like, no, actually, like we have these lenses that can do cool things. We have a TV frame. Yeah. We can move wherever we want within this TV frame and actually use that to tell stories because you can insert that just like a TV show. Mm-hmm. You insert the audience into the room, you know?
Yeah. And so he started to get really experimental with that, which really set apart his puppet shows from the other stuff that was on tv. Which is kind of cool. That is cool. He was thinking like a director, not just a puppeteer. Yeah.
Layla: Make the puppets,
Nikki: the
Layla: actors not right. Yeah. And make the set part of, make it a set, not just a box.
Right? Yes. Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Nikki: So some of the first Muppets were for a show he finally landed, called Sam and Friends. I'm gonna show you a picture.
Layla: Sam and Friends, or Sam and friends. Sam [00:13:00] and friends.
Nikki: Okay. So I'll put this picture, I'll have her put this picture on Instagram.
On Instagram. But who do you recognize in this picture? It's Jim and Jane, A young Jim and Jane with a bunch of Muppets. Who do we recognize? There's only one. Oh, the rest of them just looks like puppets. Okay.
Layla: Well, Kermit's
Nikki: there. He's
Layla: looking rough. He looks kind of musty. There's m Okay.
Nikki: Yes. So the first iterations of Kermit.
Kermit was one of the first ones, but he did, he was not yet a frog. He was just like an ambiguous, reptilian type. Yeah. He
Layla: looks like a bunch of mold.
Nikki: He just kinda looks like a blob. That's because Kermit was made out of his mom's castoff spring coat. Icon and he literally had cut in half golf balls for ice.
I mean, not golf balls, ping pong balls. That's so funny. Which is so cute because that's exactly how that's, I feel like I make that puppet now. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So he's made of wool, likely if it's a spring coat. Mm-hmm. And he has really long fingers. And the reason he did so well was because you can see his face is not like hard and molded like these other ones.
Yeah, it's very [00:14:00] soft and pliable. Mm. And so, you know, when you think of Kermit, you think of those silly mouth expressions he makes. Yeah. And that was why. But he doesn't yet have, um, webbed feet. He's not yet a frog. He doesn't have his collar either, I don't No. He also doesn't have the rough around his collar that Yeah, he's spiky.
Piece of felt. Yeah.
Layla: He's kinda just like a flap of skin.
Nikki: Right. Green. It was when he started, Jim started making some TV movies based on fairytales. He made the frog prints. Oh, and he made Kermit be the Frog. Oh. And that is what made Kermit remain a frog forever. Love. And he became like a character. Yeah, a main character.
Speaking of main characters though, the first Muppet to really become a main character that was known and well known and reused for many things, was Rolf the dog. Do you know what he looks like? Oh, isn't
Layla: he like the shaggy one? Hair covers his eyes, or no? Yeah,
Nikki: he talks kind of like a New Yorker, I think.
Like, yeah. Yeah. So he was actually created for a Purina dog chow commercial because Jim was getting hired to do a lot of commercials with puppets. I think I'm still surprised as a person in [00:15:00] 2025 that puppets were so prevalent in adult TV and commercials and stuff.
Layla: Yeah. I mean, it's, I don't, yeah, I don't know.
Nikki: Like I did not realize that was a prevalent thing. Before Jim Henson and The Muppets.
Layla: Yeah. I mean, we animate adult stuff now.
Nikki: Yes.
Layla: So it's kind of like same vibe. That's true. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah,
Nikki: we'll talk about that a little bit more too.
Layla: Mm.
Nikki: So he. Had a small team of puppeteers, like his wife I already mentioned, and these puppet makers that are mentioned in the very beginning.
A lot of them just stayed with him throughout his entire career. They did move to Manhattan to do this. So you can still visit the New York Manhattan, offices, even though the production now is a little bit. Down the street like a couple blocks away. the office atmosphere was very laid back and just like a creative space for them to brainstorm the craziest things.
And this is what really speaks to me because I design a lot of doll patterns and animal rag dolls and clothes for them, and. And also improvisational quilts that just like, make your brain think I can do anything [00:16:00] with this. Mm-hmm. You know, and I, I, I bet that was a lot of what he was thinking too when he was designing these really wild looking Yeah.
Puppets. Okay. So some of the guys were Jerry Jewel, Frank Oz, is that a name you recognize? These all sound like puppet makers. Yeah. Are you kidding? Like these were actors at the time. I think Jim was making most of the puppets himself in the beginning, but he did eventually start working with, um. Oh, first Frank Oz was the voice of Rolf Cookie, monster Grover and Miss Piggy.
Whoa, miss Piggy and, and plenty more. Yeah. Okay. And then Dawn Sahin, S-A-H-I-N, was a puppet designer and builder. And then there was an, there were other designers and builders that came on too, a female one that stayed with him forever. And um, so there was a small team, but they were a very loyal team that really moved along with him even when he moved the whole operation to England, which I'll tell you about in a minute.
But of course when you think of the Muppets and what catapulted them to worldwide fame, what do you think of Miss Piggy? Oh really? That's funny. 'cause she didn't come around till much later. Wait, wait. Say that. Say it again. [00:17:00] When you think of what catapulted the Muppets to worldwide fame for adults and children, that's a hint.
Layla: Well, they had a show, the m Muppet Show. I, I, I'm sorry. I've only had, okay. It's Sesame Street. Oh, yeah.
Nikki: Okay. Full disclosure.
Layla: Layla didn't really watch Sesame Street. I did not watch Sesame Street. I I, this entire time. I've only had Muppets most wanted in my head and I can't get the song. My, oh my gosh, my head's so funny.
You can sing that for us at the end. I think we'd get copyrights checked. Yeah, you're right. Copyright. It's not gonna be that good. So maybe not, but.
Nikki: Okay, so Sesame Street, I did grow up watching it, but I don't think that you guys really did. I thought that was a different thing. Sesame Street. Yeah. You didn't realize it was the Muppets like Elmo, right?
Yes. Elmo Cookie Monster. Count the count. Bur and Ernie. I, yeah, I guess like Kermit Kers on there. Miss Peggy was on later. Oh, I just always
Layla: thought that it was two different things.
Nikki: No. Okay. That happened to me so many times when I was reading this book. Really? Because Just wait till you hear. What else is Muppets?
Well, 'cause
Layla: like Elmo isn't in like the Muppet movies.
Nikki: Yeah, you're right. He was made for Sesame Street.
Layla: Yeah,
Nikki: same with Cookie Monster though.
Layla: Okay.
Nikki: So I, [00:18:00] so you have like the main characters that travel from movie to movie, but yeah. And then SES of 'em are street streets. Just Sesame Street. Like Big bte?
Yeah, like Big Bird. I would call them the A team for Sesame Street. So before this though, Jim had really just wanted to do adult programming. But there was a lady named Joan Gans Cooney, who worked for PBS, I think, and she just saw a huge gap in children's programming. Mm-hmm. She's like, we need to have some educational, fun programs for our kids.
Yeah. Here's what I wanna do and I want Jim Henson to do it.
And
Nikki: when asked, what if he won't or can't, she said, then we won't do puppets at all. We'll, think of a totally new idea. Yeah. Basically it's Jim Henson Muppets. Or nothing. Or nobody, yeah. Yeah. But he did say yes. Love and obviously Sesame Street is still continuing today.
Huge. Yeah. Like it was a daily show when I was a kid. I'm pretty sure
Layla: it's on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Yes. So is Kermit that big blow up Kermit?
Nikki: Yeah. So Sesame Street is an American icon Yeah. Of a TV program. Mm-hmm. And it, and it had the puppets interacting with the adults. Mm-hmm. And with the [00:19:00] children.
Have you seen that iconic commercial with the little girl? With the girl counting cookie monster? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, from what I was reading, I think that was ad-libbed or that really, that is something that happened in the office with Cookie Monster was just out and a little girl came in and they were interacting that way and she was being silly like that.
Mm-hmm.
Nikki: And I, it seems like they translated what happened in there over to actually creating that as a commercial. That's
Layla: cute.
Nikki: Which is so cute. Yeah. They really loved the kids. A lot of those episodes have Jim's kids in them. Aw, that's cute. I think they had three children. I can't imagine growing up in that kind of, of Muppets Yeah.
Environment. Yeah. Okay. So obviously Sesame Street is going strong. And Jim Henson, though, while thankful for that success, especially the, he was a very savvy businessman. Yeah. He realized quickly that money could catapult. Mm-hmm. His hopes and dreams. And so he was still really wanting to make adult shows though.
Hmm. So he came up with. Muppet show,
Layla: which I don't know if I've ever seen, I have not seen the Muppet show. [00:20:00] Honestly. I feel like they probably scared me as a child.
Nikki: Muppets.
Layla: Like, I don't know if you just didn't let us watch it.
Nikki: Like Sesame Street you mean? Yeah, like I feel like they probably scared me. Well, here's why.
We didn't have local tv. We had no, Disney. Yeah, we had cable. I think
Layla: I remember watching Cyber Chase. Was that PBS or No,
Nikki: that was But that was on whatever streaming service It was. Yeah, it was on
Layla: something. And when you guys were little, you had to pay separately for PBS. Mm-hmm. So I don't think we ever really, so that's why watched in Muppets, except in the movies.
And I
Nikki: don't think we subscribed to cable though. Like why? Trying to remember how TV worked in the realm of like Tigo.
I do know we got a lot of those Disney shows on DVD from the library.
Layla: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nikki: So any, at any rate, it wasn't because I wouldn't let you watch Sesame Street for whatever reason it was because we didn't have access to it easily.
We couldn't,
Layla: um, we watched the, we were Barbie girls
Nikki: also. We watched the Barbie movies. We also weren't the type that would just sit down and watch whatever was on. Mm-hmm. You had to be, Sesame Street was on. We were not tracking that and [00:21:00] like trying Yeah. I know of it though, like yes. Big Bird and all that stuff.
Big bird and all them stuff. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, he did eventually film a couple of pilot episodes of this Muppets show, which was more like a variety show, but for adults, like SNL, but Muppets.
Layla: Okay. Funny
Nikki: actually, Jim Hinson's Muppets were a part of the very first SNL cast. No way. But they sort of, um, it just wasn't quite right for the genre of snl Yeah.
And what they were doing. So, um, they sort of parted ways amicably, I assume. Yeah. And he created this pilot instead. But no American company picked it up really. But a company in England picked it up. Mm. And so he moved himself and his entire operation Dang. To produce the Muppet Show from England. Wow. I know.
Yeah. And actually, one of the, or the only British puppeteer they had was a female who eventually voiced Ms. Piggy. There we go. I was wondering about the Frank Guy. I would never have guessed she had an English accent though. No. Like now [00:22:00] I'm gonna pay real attention. Like who was voicing Ms. Picky. Yeah. Can I detect their accent?
'cause when we watch movies, I'm really good at telling if people really have an American accent. Yeah, you
Layla: clock them.
Nikki: Yeah, I do.
this, the Muppet Show became wildly popular. He wanted it to have a lot of celebrities.
So in the beginning he was just really relying on his rapport with a lot of these famous people. Yeah. And finally, like once the show got rolling, he was like, tons of celebrities. Brooke Shields, Steve Martin, Elton John, everybody was on the Muppet Show. Yeah. Which is crazy 'cause they were in England. Yeah.
So people were willing to go there, to be on it. Yeah. And this became a huge thing, obviously in the US too. Mm-hmm. I wonder if those. People who declined to pick up the pilot. Oh, regretted it. Oh, regretted it. Yeah. So after this, of course, he went on to create ton more movies. Mm-hmm. And things for adults.
Fraggle Rock, which we'll talk about in a minute. But for now, before we get into how these puppets are actually made, let's take a quick break.
[00:23:00] [00:24:00]
Nikki: Okay. So let's discuss how they actually make the Muppets. I went down the YouTube rabbit hole for this, and do you remember Adam Savage from MythBusters?
Oh yeah. Did not watch that either. The one you didn't watch. MythBusters. Okay. There was a phase when Natalie was obsessed with MythBuster.
Layla: Really?
Nikki: MythBusters. I
Layla: feel like she lived a whole lifetime without me, Natalie, because I haven't seen a single hand Montana movie. I never watched Miss MythBusters.
Has she seen them? Yeah, she had hand Montana PJ pants. Yeah, but those were hand me downs from Jelly. Oh.
Nikki: I don't know if she's seen him. The other, that's so
Layla: funny. I I do. Didn't they do an episode where they like. I tried to see if putting a car in reverse would stop it faster than slamming on the brakes.
I have no idea because I feel like I watched that one.
Nikki: Okay. Well let's get back to Jim. Yeah, sorry, back on track. Adam Savage has a really, really good YouTube channel, Lela, if you've never watched it, he's really good.
Layla: Okay.
Nikki: He has done a lot of different videos about the Muppets 'cause I was trying to see like, how do they make the Muppets?
Mm-hmm. And they're actually more sculpted than sewn.
Layla: [00:25:00] Interesting.
Nikki: Yeah. I mean there are sewing parts and there's a lot of contraptions, especially on the big ones. Yeah. Like the big suits, that are obviously like zippers and closures and they are a lot of sewing. But the littler ones are. Made of like foam products and sculpted that way.
And then covered with felt or fleece and other materials. And then one of the, in one of the videos, Adam Savage got to go into the workshop. Cool. And he stopped at like the eye, where they make the eyes and they have this huge, huge collection of like. Eye punches of every size you can imagine. That's crazy.
One of them is named like Big bird. Yeah. And these punches are only for eyes. There's like these signs only for eyes because they want them to be like really nice and sharp. Yeah. And so they have all of these just materials and punches and I would so love to go visit that workshop. Yeah, that'd be cool.
I don't know if they do tours of the shop, that would be like my, that would be really cool if we ever go to New York City. Yeah, I've never been, I have so many places to see now because of this [00:26:00] podcast. And so Adam Savage also went and he got to see someone get in one of the giant Muppet suits, you know?
Yeah. Think like Big Bird and Snuffle up, I guess, who actually had two people and snuffle up, I guess. Kind of like That's crazy. A dragon in the Nutcracker. Yeah. Someone for the feet, someone for the,
Layla: see. I'm like five nights at Freddy's. Are they? Spring, spring. Loaded, or are they just like fur suits?
Nikki: Ooh, okay.
So they do have an infrastructure. Interesting. Kind of like a hoop skirt has.
Layla: Okay,
Nikki: so it's like bogie. Yeah. Yeah.
Layla: But, and it's like, wait. Yeah. But in five nights at Freddy's, they're spring loaded suits. Okay. No. So springs hold them all together and that's how people, okay. I have, I've only seen
Nikki: the live action movie with Josh Hutcher.
Oh, the
Layla: Lord goes crazy. The suits are scary. I
Nikki: wonder. Do you know in that movie if they're wearing those actual costumes? Yeah,
Layla: there's actual people in those suits. Oh, so those
Nikki: are designed, I'm pretty sure after Jim Henson's designs probably,
Layla: I'm pretty sure I saw pictures of people actually in them.
That's just another thing. Yeah. And now I wanna watch the
Nikki: movie
Layla: again.
Nikki: Okay. Yeah. So yeah, the infrastructure of those big ones, [00:27:00] they not only have that interior like hoop system, they're usually put on in two parts. So they put the pants on and then the top. And mask on and they're zipped together and snapped.
Layla: Okay, cute. And
Nikki: then the shoes are put on. What
Layla: if there's a fire? Fire
Nikki: evacuation. Okay. They discussed that. in case the person overheats mm-hmm. Which the costumes are made, the reason they have that hoop is so that it can just be fabric over and not like they're not stuffing Yeah.
Breathable. Right.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: but obviously you wouldn't wanna be caught alone,
Layla: there's a fire No,
Nikki: because they are designed to wear, somebody else can get you out of it really quick.
Layla: Okay, good.
Nikki: But you would need help. Yeah. Because once you're in it, you can't get out unless someone helps you. That's kind of scary.
Yeah. But they not only have that. genius infrastructure. They also have animatronics in the head.
Layla: Whoa.
Nikki: And a lot of times including inside of Big Bird, because the person can't always see where they're going. No. They have a screen in there. Oh, cool. So they can see and there's like this camera system and then somebody over there.
Mm-hmm. Not in the suit is operating the mouth function from [00:28:00]
Layla: Oh, cool. The
Nikki: outside. That's crazy. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Yeah. My favorite ride at Disney is that, um. Mickey and Minnie's train. Yeah. And all, all of Disney. I'm always just so fascinated by the animatronics in there. Yeah.
Layla: It's crazy.
Nikki: Yeah. Like how can we do in person what people now do in movies with CGI.
Layla: Mm-hmm. Literally. It's
Nikki: super cool.
Layla: Yeah. And so, what was I saying? Minnie and Mickey's.
Nikki: Oh. So before they ever make the Muppets though, and this I love because I work the same way. Mm-hmm. There's tons of sketches of Jim Hinson's original, just like doodles about what the character would look like.
Layla: Concept art.
Nikki: Yes. Character design. And they were so cute. Like, and I work the same way. I have a spiral notebook where I do all of my like design and work and to-dos and stuff in. Yeah. And I have the most primitive looking sketches of like my really. Elaborate. Mm-hmm. Quilts. Yeah. Or like, I'm gonna make a draft all, so I'm just gonna doodle out what this will look like.
Mm-hmm.
Nikki: And obviously it looks so like basic [00:29:00] compared to the finished product. Yeah. But he did the same exact thing. Huh. And so he would doodle and then he would work with his designers and getting them looked just right and it really mattered to them the placement of the eyes, which as you as an artist understand that.
Yeah. Like the eyes are so important to connecting with the thing. Yeah. And so that was like a big deal. The size of them, the shape of them, and where they were looking.
Hmm.
Nikki: Some of the muppets are driven by two people. So one has his hand on the hand and the mouth. Yeah. And another person is like doing the other hand or something, huh.
Yeah. So some of them require two people to operate. Are they,
Layla: are they like playing like three-legged race in there then? Or are they? Is one person con like moving their feet for the feet and then the other person's like on their back? Like, how does that work?
Nikki: Uh, no, these are the kind that like you don't see the legs.
Oh, okay. I think they're the kind where the person needs to operate, the eyes and the mouth with both of their hands. And so someone else has to work the arms, uh,
Layla: who has to be the butt,
Nikki: right? Mm-hmm. But in most of 'em, like Kermit.
Layla: [00:30:00] Yeah.
Nikki: It's just one person. It's just one person, one of the mouth, and then, um, the arms are on the sticks.
The rods, yeah. Well, I've
Layla: seen behind the scenes of Fraggle Rock. You have? Yeah. And they're like, they're going under the bridge and there's like 20 people down there and they're all like crawling on their backs. Puppeteering the things they're like crawling on their backs, like pushing their feet so they can move.
Oh my gosh.
Nikki: It's crazy. Yeah, I bet they needed a chiropractor on staff.
Layla: Oh, for sure.
Nikki: Although the, a lot of the sets were built on platforms.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: So that the people didn't have to crouch down. They could be like full-sized people. Mm-hmm. Because I can imagine like, yeah, that would suck. Yeah. But also some of those big ones, like Big Bird you've seen in roller skating.
Yeah, that was for real. They really were like, dang, he put on this giant suit that you can't see out of. Mm-hmm. And then roller skate backwards. Jesus. It's insane. Yeah. That's crazy. I think even snuffle up against was on roller skate at some point. So Yeah. Incredible talent. oh. Not only did he draw out the Muppets, they worked as a team to give every single person, person character a full backstory.
Yep. The lower. Yeah. And this is, I [00:31:00] feel like this is the genius of the Muppets. Mm-hmm. And that's why they have such main characters. Because like for example, miss Piggy came about for the Muppet show so much later than Sesame Street and everybody. And, Ooh. And we just got a paper cut. This book. Oh, death
Layla: by Jim Henson.
Cursed.
Nikki: So Miss Piggy was just sort of a pig character and then she was in one scene with Kermit? Mm-hmm. For something or other, I don't remember which. And it was in her. Script to slap Kermit and instead of slapping him, she gave that really guttural and karate chopped him. Yeah. And that was like a light bulb.
Yeah. Here's where we're going with Miss Piggy moment. And so after that, like they created a whole backstory for her. Yep. She's from the Midwest. This is why she's sassy. She loves Kermit because blah, blah, blah. So they really, really, and then they kept that characterization in mind for. Every, everything script that his piggy was in from now out.
Mm-hmm. And that happened with a lot of the Muppets. Her father died young and her mother wasn't very nice to her. Oh, she had to [00:32:00] enter beauty contest to survive. This is the, um. Actual bio they made for her. That's so
Layla: funny.
Nikki: She has a lot of aggressiveness, but she needs a lot in order to survive as many women do.
Layla: Yeah.
Nikki: She has a lot of vulnerability, which she has to hide because of her need to be a superstar.
Layla: Yes. That's so funny. I.
Nikki: Oh, once she had a memorable duet with Raquel Welch. My mom used to do her workout videos. Oh, you told us about this. She's the, she's the woman who had the squeeze your buttocks line that my sister and I used to make fun of when we were little.
Layla: Yeah. I've been obsessed with, um, aerobic competitions recently. And I guess my granny used to do that.
Nikki: It's crazy. I don't think granny quite used to do that.
Granny, surprisingly, I mean unsurprisingly
Layla: always
Nikki: has loved Miss Pig.
Layla: Of co. Oh girl. Yeah. If I, if Granny got cursed to be a Muppet immediately. Miss Piggy immediately. Miss Piggy has been
Nikki: on the cover of Time Magazine.
Layla: Yeah. 'cause she's an icon. She's full calendars. she's an icon.
Nikki: So that said, this empire grew to include a ton of merchandise, calendars, art prints. Mm-hmm. Like series of photographer, artwork. [00:33:00] And then Jim Hinson himself designed a Christmas card. Every year there were quilts made. Let me show you this picture.
No way. You should make 'em Muppet Quilt. I should. looks very nineties to me, but it says, another example of family spirit within the Henson organization is the tradition of presenting beautiful handmade quilts on special occasions. Like births, many people contributed individual squares to these quilts.
The work of putting them together is coordinated by Steven Rot Ro. Rod Andro. I don't know who came up with the idea. This particular example was given to Carollee Wilcox when she left the company after 20 years. Oh, I'm gonna be honest. It's the ugliest
Layla: quilt I've ever seen. Oh, it's like kind.
Nikki: Yeah, but you can't like I like this block is quilt.
It's because they're very pretty back in the eighties and nineties. Uhhuh, you would like frame it, like sash it with black and do these really crayon colors. Yeah. See, it
Layla: looks, yeah, it kinda looks like one of those rugs at the library that have the like numbers on it, you know?
Nikki: Yeah. It's like the individual blocks are cool.
It is very primary colors. But we'll put a picture of this on the Instagram. Yeah, because some of the blocks are fun [00:34:00] and I just like the idea. Yeah. That was a little harsh, but of course we, yeah, harshly. Well, I hope nobody listening was involved in this quote. Quilt too. Go in and out of style though, for sure.
Okay. But if I found this in an estate sale, I would buy it. Oh, for sure. Are you kidding? Yeah, it's cool. There's, um, so he passed away in 1990. He did not want anybody wearing black at his funeral. He wanted colors and he wanted a jazz band.
Layla: Okay. Wait, he's literally me. Yeah, because I've told you before.
Yeah. Everyone's wearing purple.
Nikki: jazz. Jazz band. Jazz band, band. Yeah. A jazz band is a really good idea. The jazz version of When the Saints Go marching in. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Yeah. So Winnie passed away though. They were in the middle of a merger with Disney.
Mm.
Nikki: Um, which had sort of halfway taken place by then.
So that's why Disney now does sell like. Some Kermit stuff and it was the, the Muppet 3D movie they had just like collaborated on. So yeah, they just closed that at Disney. All of that did sort of seal a collaboration, but they never actually did merge because he passed away. Yeah. But Disney remains a [00:35:00] distributor of some of the Muppet stuff.
But before that, we had the eighties and that's when the Labyrinth came in and Fraggle Rock. And these definitely had some darker energy in the, yeah, in the Muppets in a funny way.
Layla: Wasn't there? Um The movie, hang on Oh my gosh. Tell me about it. Okay. It has like muppets in it. It's like, okay, picture, like a Muppet version of Lord of the Rings.
But there are these like crystals and they're like, um, oh bro, bro, bro, bro, I have no idea. Have the, the like coolest puppets in it, but it is the most wild movie. I'm almost positive that would be Jim Henson. I am almost positive as well. Is it here? Hang on, hang on, hang on.
Nikki: The dark
Layla: crystal?
Nikki: This?
Layla: Yes. Uh, the like movie.
Okay. I had never heard of this movie. No. I watched a YouTube video on somebody talking about it. It is like the craziest, there's one scene where like they eat one of the Muppets or so, or like they're, oh my gosh. There's like this big like feast scene and they're all like, it's, it's crazy. I think we need to watch that for
Nikki: the
Layla: lore.
Nikki: In this era because you know, like all the [00:36:00] tiny little muppets in Labyrinth, this was it. Yeah. Those were completely remote controlled, at which point, no way. You can't really call those puppets. No. Like remote controlled puppets. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say no.
Layla: I feel like a puppet is puppeteered.
Nikki: yeah. So these got very different. These Muppets are very different from like the Sesame Street ones.
Layla: they're at like a feast table and they were all like, it is, oh yeah. It's crazy. It's very like Game of Throne Thrones looking.
Yeah. I'm writing, what is it called? The dark crystal. Okay. Add it to the movie wheel. Yeah. We'll see if this one goes over better.
Nikki: And then, so this was the eighties and he was doing a lot of this kind of stuff all throughout the eighties. I loved Fraggle Rock as a kid. I haven't seen it really forever. I do remember getting it for you guys from the library once, and I don't remember what you thought of it.
Didn't they just like update it though? Like they just made a new Fraggle rock. They're bringing it back. I think I have to watch that. But even after his death, have you heard of the nineties show Dinosaurs? That. That's very broad. Okay. I used to watch this when I was a kid with my dad, and I did not, I did not know that that was [00:37:00] Dinosaurs.
The Muppets, huh? That's part of the Jim Henson catalog. Oh yeah. His so is the Ninja Turtles movies in the eighties. No way. I was shocked to learn that. Shocked.
Layla: That's so
Nikki: cool. Yeah, those were created by the Henson Company. Those were Muppets. Yeah. Well there were men inside of them, just like Big Bird. I can't remember what they call those giant ones.
I'll have to find it. The animatronics, the big, the big ones. They were called something specific. Huh. and then also I was, oh, the Christmas, the Muppet Christmas Carol, which is one of my favorite ones. Yeah. That came out after his death. Muppet's Most Wanted. That's iconic. Yes. Muppet's Most wanted iconic in more recent years.
Yeah. And this is still going strong. And now every time I see anything that looks like a puppet or a big body costume
mm-hmm.
Nikki: I am gonna know that it was the Jim Henson, probably a MS company. Yeah. And what I'm wondering, and what we need to look up is if the Mask singer, oh, like those costumes are very much like those big Jim Henson costumes, the way they get in them and the way they're made.
Yeah. So now I wonder if there's a collaboration there. We'll have [00:38:00] to look it up and see. I don't know if you guys watch the Master. Yeah. But it's worth it. Just for the spectacle
Layla: of these costumes are incredible. Oh no. They are not designed by Jim Henson or his company. Oh, they're designed by Marina Tona.
Interesting.
Nikki: Huh. I think it's safe to say that he was the precursor for everything. Similar though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. so my personal history with puppets when I was a kid, my mom, we. She, okay. So the children's ministry at church, I think my mom was in charge of it, or very involved either. Yeah. And she decided she wanted to have puppets tell some of those stories.
Mm-hmm. So she started to make them, she found a couple of pictures that we'll put on Instagram, but yeah, it was the pastor's Pals. Yes. So my dad used PVC pipe. To build a puppet stage. It was big too. Yeah. But it could like fold away I think. Mm. And it had a big felt front and a backdrop. It said pastor's pals.
And I think I was like 13 when I started being one of the puppeteers. Oh, I was one of the original, [00:39:00] yes ma'am. Pastor's pal puppeteers. Yep. She couldn't find the company whose patterns she used. I'm still gonna try to dig for that though. Yeah.
Layla: But we had
Nikki: them for up until I was. Eight. Yes. Those puppets got passed around.
Yeah. From church person to church person, whoever needed to use them. Mm-hmm. And some of them were like really cool and big. We had a huge chicken. Yeah. Sometimes we would sing, like she would teach puppet class at VBS vacation Bible school every summer and then we would present like a big song thing.
Yeah. Those were my favorite ones. But we also had scripts and I specifically remember that the. Puppets. The regulars. Mm-hmm. They had their own personalities the same way that Jim Hensons did. we had one called SCH nozzle. He had a big nose and he was always confused. Tallulah was like, such a Hermione.
Know-it-all. Yeah. And so like those puppets will always be such good memories for me. We don't know anymore, but Mom did donate them to someone else to use them. Yeah. They were cool. Yeah. And I just, I bet she had so much fun making them. Oh, for sure. A lot of felt. A lot of hot glued, googly eyes. Mm-hmm. [00:40:00] And they had yarn hair.
Yeah. And clothes. They were cute. Yeah. So cute. So that's all we got today? Oh, should we read some listener mail? We should. Okay.
So I already told you about Lori's comment to me about, or emailed to me about Hillary Clinton's wedding dress. Thank you so much for that, Lori, because. That's a really, really cool picture. Yeah. It's cool. Of her and Bill Clinton way long time ago. Mm-hmm.
She also said in this email that she was actually criticized for her lack of style because she was being compared to Jackie Kennedy, but as a young woman. Mm-hmm. At the time she was actually very in style. Yeah. So people weren't realizing that that was the trend. All the boomers. Yeah. And then we have an email from your granny, from my mom.
Layla: Yeah. Let's see, from Lori Meyer. Great show. Very informative and highly entertaining as always. Regarding the gunny sax dresses, I loved that. Look in the seventies I grew up in California, so it was definitely a hippie look, and I think it might have been a response to the prevalent fashion choices of the Twiggy or Preppy slash Mary Tyler Moore looks.
Also, America was experiencing the Vietnam War and aftermath, [00:41:00] radical tension space programs, feminism, and on and on, maybe a long, maybe a longing for a former time and perceived stability ties to the land and all that led to the popular. Look of the gunny sacks. Thanks for the memories. Oh, and as for low rise pants, check out the hip huggers from the sixties and seventies.
Yeah.
Nikki: Somebody I think sent me That's so funny. A YouTube comment about those hip huggers too. Really? I think Granny texted us a picture of 'em too. Yeah. Okay. This email is from Candace.
she has a topic suggestion. Ooh, okay. She said, what about the history of quilts used to direct folks on the Underground Railroad? We
Layla: have talked about doing an episode
Nikki: about that. Yes. And then she quoted a. Something she read recently on a website, which is Confessions of A Homeschooler, which I really read a lot when you guys were younger.
Oh, really? So I have started researching this topic. Mm-hmm. And it became so much bigger than I thought it was. Yeah. And it's also really difficult to find actually true information because what I learned, the very first thing. A lot of the information is lore. Yeah. And not actually true. So [00:42:00] we actually have a spot here in Louisville that was part of the underground railroad.
Yeah. Hadley pottery. Hadley pottery. So, I might either need to narrow the topic Yeah. Or just do a very broad take on the possibilities of it. So, yeah. Good suggestion. Yeah. And it's good to know you want that. I will keep studying it. But for now, that's all we got. We'll see you guys soon.
I mean. You'll hear us soon. Bye bye.